RUMOR!!! About the Hordes of Chaos book (Mortals)

[lordfairfax2001]

According to rumors...as of the next issue of White Dwarf (WD) the Hordes of Chaos book will be defunct. A temp Mortals list will be out in the next WD to use until they get a new book in November.

Warseer Chaos rumor thread

Warning, it's a very long thread and I didn't read all of it...

[rokassan]

I hope they dont fuck up Chaos.

[lordfairfax2001]

Depends on your definition -- AGAIN THIS IS ALL RUMOR AND NOT CONFIRMED FROM GW...

Looks like the Chaos army is getting cheaper, but is losing some units and interchangeability with the other books (Daemons and Beasts). Knights moving to special follows GW's recent trend to get away from the all cav forces that have supposedly dominated GT/RTTs in the last couple of years...Khorne losing the extra dispell dice for every unit with mark -- only characters with the mark will now add an extra dispell dice (no word on the same happening for Tzeentch and the extra power dice)...many other changes -- too many to mention, but most of the "bickering" centers around the lack of variation in the new list...

So, based on your frustrations with the 40K Chaos codex (lack of fluff/customizability), I will have to go with...yes it looks like they are fv(king up Chaos...

Again, just rumors and this is supposedly a "hold down the fort/playtest setof rules" while they are finalizing the new Army Book...reportedly, they will take into account the recommendations of Chaos players who have used the WD rules before the book goes to the printer (we know how well that works, now don't we ).

[rokassan]

If they fuck it up. Sooooo the beast units I wasted my money on are ueless to me now. Demons are...useless as well. Jesus Christ, they need to stop fucking with the gamers. They have neutered 40k, leave Fantasy alone you syphilis ridden cocksuckers.

[lordfairfax2001]

If they fuck it up. Sooooo the beast units I wasted my money on are ueless to me now. Demons are...useless as well. Jesus Christ, they need to stop fucking with the gamers. They have neutered 40k, leave Fantasy alone you syphilis ridden cocksuckers.

So...what you're sayin', and I'm just makin' an educated guess here, is you're slightly unhappy with the direction the game designers are going with Chaos???

You are correct, they are making the lists more "generic." Not sure why, especially with an army that as much fluff as Chaos, allowing for most likely the most flexible/colorful army in all the WHFB world. Rumors do abound, however, that one might be able to take Beast, or Daemon, unit(s) if one takes certain magic items with ones characters, but those are unconfirmed.

[rokassan]

Its like battle front saying Germans and Italians cant be Allies in North Africa. At least FoW allows you to field two companies at the same time if you want British and American troops fighting together. GW should at least let you do that in 40k. For example Demons and Chaos Marines. Youd just need to satisfy the compulsory minimum for both forces.

[Diosamblet]

There goes my all cavalry slaanesh army... I got to play less than 15 games with it, and bought 15 chaos knights! Nevermind, I WILL make it work somehow! All praise be to Slaanesh.

[scurrdi]

Well, I imagine that the Mauaders are still in.

Anyways, I think they should make the allowance of Daemons and beasts into Mortal armies just the same way as they allow Kislev to be added, using the allied contingent rules.

They can't be more then half of your total force value. You MUST have a minimum number of heroes and core from the allied army (there are Maximums as well) and you can't take any rare choices from the other armies unless your playing 3k points or more.

Example:

2000 pt Empire army with Kislev allied contingent allows you have:
1-2 Heroes
1-3 Core
0-2 Special

Now the rules state things like you can't use the main army general's leadership for the allied troops. Things like that can be tweaked a little for Chaos (within reason) but I think this is the best method for GW to approach.

[lordfairfax2001]

Its like battle front saying Germans and Italians cant be Allies in North Africa. At least FoW allows you to field two companies at the same time if you want British and American troops fighting together. GW should at least let you do that in 40k. For example Demons and Chaos Marines. Youd just need to satisfy the compulsory minimum for both forces.

There you go again...trying to apply logic to a GW decision. Chaos as been GW's special army for quite some time and it looks like the new people in charge feel differently (the "all High Elves have ASF" craptacular idea comes to mind...). Warseer has a lot of speculation (most of it idiotic), but no one knows for sure what has prompted GW to gut their Chaos armies in both WHFB and WH40K. Maybe they're hoping people will start 3 distinct armies, then eventually, once they've sucked as much $$$ out of you as they can, they'll let the lists be recombined...one never knows. If GW still had their community forum boards up, they might get a good feel for how bad a business decision this move is, as well as a gaming decision. Here's hoping for a FAQ in the next 12-18 months for you guys. Mind you, I seriously dislike Chaos, as I think the old lists were subject to horrible abuse (the new Daemon list can make some incredibly abusive lists), but I did like the fluff and the flexibility and understand the frustration that eliminating it has on gamers.

[rokassan]

You plays Elves and Eldar and you talk about list abuse? Again Chaos wasnt the one winning all of the rouge trader tournaments and whatnot.That would have been Eldar and Tau. If the list had been so broken they we should have been winning the majority of the time. Id dare say Stephan,Phil and I are above average players and we didnt win every game we played. On another note I appreciate your support on the fluff side of our loss. They could have balanced the codex without gutting it.

[ShadowMaster]

Yeah - I've known about these for a good 2 months now.

One of the reasons I jumpping into the 'Ard Boys tourney was to get a chance to use my Tzeentch list before they made it illegal.

One rumor you are missing is the new ability to mix marks within your list. This is suppost to help replace the loss of demons and beasts.

As a new player - I can't tell you how bad I think this sucks. I have a basicly new $22 army book that is now obsolete and I get to spend $6 more to get the WD list. Plus models I can't use and models I will now need = alot of lost ca$h. I'll be lucky if I can work both of my chariots and my knights into my list. Thank heavens for ebay!

The reason I'm playing all demons as red/blue marauders is to not loose any more money on models they are taking away from me.

Another nasty rumor I did not see in that thread - this new "approved" Chaos list will be the basis model for ALL future Army lists. In other words, ALL armies will get new strict limits at one point or another going forward.

[lordfairfax2001]

I've admitted that the HE list is broken...especially now with all Elves have ASF (only High Elves mind you, not Dark or Wood -- they're not really Elves after all... ) and with the new ruling on Dragon Armor (protects rider and mount from everything that's on fire, not just the fire)...just stupid. The Eldar list is subject to abuse, too, but the people winning most of the 40K tournaments (at least back up north), were:

1) Chaos
2) Orks
3) Necrons (not very flexible, but 2 monoliths and a C'Tan in 1850 points is just stupid)
4) Tau

Eldar players, good ones all of them, were getting cremed, even with the dreaded Eldrad/Falcon lists. All lists are subject to abuse, in fact. I played Chaos for 18 months in both 40K and Fantasy and I was almost undefeated, even with lists that I didn't think were all that nasty (I'm not that good a player that I should win over 99% of my games). With lists that I knew were nasty...I made them specifically to be nasty (especially because I was playing a power-gamer), I wasn't just undefeated, I usually wiped my opponent out (even with mediocre dice rolling), so I stand by the fact that the old codex/army book allowed for some abusive combinations.

it is a true statement that the more flexible a list is, the more subject it is to power-gaming/abuse (the old 9 oblit and four 5" AP3 or better pie plate, with the uber-lord of CC death Iron Warriors list comes to mind).

Again, I admit the armies I've picked to play are some of the most recently updated lists (I've been playing each of them for at least 6 years, so didn't pick them because of their new book, by the way), which make them uber powerful. I am also saying that, while the new 40K Chaos list is quite powerful -- I think 4 of the top 10 finishers in the Baltimore 40K GT were Chaos players, and a Chaos player is either 1st or 2nd in most all the RTTs that my old group runs -- it's also become quite bland, which they seem to be doing with the WHFB army list...and for many people, that's not a good trade off. Here's hoping they listen to the customer eventually and put some life/character back into the list.

[lordfairfax2001]

Another nasty rumor I did not see in that thread - this new "approved" Chaos list will be the basis model for ALL future Army lists. In other words, ALL armies will get new strict limits at one point or another going forward.

I haven't read that...can you expand on the restrictions? No allies (DOW, Kislev, RoR units)? No mixing books, as they used to do with Chaos? No variations in the lists (fewer selections with regard to troops)? The new VC list still has a lot of its variability because you can take magic items in addition to "blood line traits" (to use an old term for VC).

[Ovich]

Theres also a rumor that the chaos mortal list will include Chaos Dwarves. Supposedly these will be able to upgrade to a ballistic unit (blunderbusses?)

The rumor is they are doing this to substantiate the link between the Hell Cannon (demonic) and it's chaos dwarf crew.

[ShadowMaster]

Cool - maybe I'll have a use for my BFSP dwarves after all.
I could use a little action in my shooting phase.

Going to go and dig up the quote re: restricted lists. I think it falls into your "No variations in the lists (fewer selections with regard to troops)?" option.
====================================================
Found it -

quoted from WD #340 (unconfirmed):

"The advent of Daemons of Chaos changes the way Chaos forces play in Warhammer. This means the Hordes of Chaos army books can no longer be used. But don't worry, your Chaos Warriors will still be able to take to the battlefield as we'll have an official "get-you-by" Chaos Warrior army list in next month's issue of White Dwarf! And fear not - a brand new Chaos Warrior army book will be released very soon!"

Another direct quote (unconfirmed):
"the book has one self-contained armylist, as will all other army books going forward."

Sounds like they may be making some moves to try and balance the game some, but at the cost of player options to army list builds.