Re: It's official

[luis the young]

Go for the ratmen!

And yeah Stephan, it would be an interesting tournament to see. Of course probably the most list-abusable armies in that situation would be Empire/Dwarves, but other then that I think it'd be a fun tournament to see what would happen. Really bring out the general-ship in people.

LOL, most aboused list would be O&G, i can have 3 shamans and a warboss under 500 points.

[Ovich]

So I can have 3 battle wizards and an empire general under 500 pts.

[Ovich]

Let's do it. Let's set a tourney date at Joel's and just run it ourselves. Judges can participate. Rules questions are always answered by a judge at another table.

[luis the young]

Im up for it, sometime in july or something, would have to be a sunday for me to really be able to make it though. Hey, i will have my skaven by then !

[scurrdi]

If I can swing being in town for a weekend in july then I'll do it. Unfortunately it's looking like the few days I'm going to be down will be during the week

[the wanderer]

I would also be interested, depending on the day and lead time.

[ShadowMaster]

I think the reason Stephen won was because the matchup favored him vs. Matt's Slaanesh Calvary list. Matt had no dispel scrolls.
I think my Tzeentch list matches up better.

It also comes down to list build. Stephen took a Lord and 3 Heros - WAY more than anyone else at the touney I saw. As Dale said, it was the cheeziest list. I don't think we need a special rules tourney to curb this, just more sportmanship from the players involved. Hell, 2 players already listed a 4 hero > 500 option, so why bother.

I could have poped up with a 4 Hero Tzeentch list with 17 power dice - but that makes me a dick. So I put in the giants, some fast calvary, chariots, etc. I didn't even take a Lord. I also scored a massacre in my 3rd round VC matchup.

Now some of that is because he player experience and skill. Stephen is a much tougher player than Dale's son. However, SOME of that is the fact that I played a more balanced 2K list with only 1 Lord and 1 Hero level character.

[Ovich]

OMG Bill, you show up with like 9 powerdice and 2 Giants and your complaining about my cheezy list? Or how about Sams 3 Reaper throwers throwing out 18 shots a turn and his Heavy Cav that zoom through woods?

Army composition scoring is not the same as sportsmanship Bill. One has to do with the overall balance of your list, the latter with your conduct and behavior during the tourney. I do not consider someone who plays with a powerful list to be unsportsmanlike. I do consider the person who argues every rule and is generally unpleasant during a game to be unsportsmanlike.

That being said, Army Comp has never been enough to determine the outcomes of tournaments. All over the country people win grand tournaments and such with the cheeziest ass lists. Why, because even though they may have broken lists, they roll over everyone else by so much that the army comp score doesn't matter.

The amount of Lords and Heroes does not neccessarily determine the "cheeziness" of a list, because in essence you are trading in more units or more powerful units for better leadership and characters. What this does is create an actual imbalance in your force that may or may not leave you vulnerable to certain types of enemy lists... it's a choice you make.. a more balance approach allows you to basically take on all comers with the same kind of chances.

Contrary to your opinion, Bill I think that taking a 4 Hero Tzeentch lists does not make you a DICK... and I hope you weren't implying that I'm a Dick for taking 4 Heroes in my VC list. In fact, 4 Heroes is quite common in tournaments.

The proposal to make a tournament with certain restrictions I think would be fun, because it would force people to be more creative with their choices, beyond the character section.

[luis the young]

I think Stephan is a Dick.

But on to other things !
Stephan is right concerning the Deifference between Sportsmanlike conduct and Bad composition scores.
Sportsmanship score: is when you play that guy that you just rather punch in the face than play another turn, those people that stop evry single action and argue about it, that guy that makes you pull out your rulebook about evry little thing your army does. This is the type of player that likes to sit back and delay the game for whatever reason.
Bad composition score: is when you look at an army and go "wtf?!" those guys that like to load up on evrything thats nasty in an army while taking the minimal core, there are ways to make EVRY army list a cheezy list, Steam tank + Altar + gun line of death comes to mind.

I think the 500 point limit on characters would work on a tourney and make it interesting, yeah you can have a lord and 3 heroes at 500 points...so what ? they are gonna be bared ass naked with none of the upgrades that REALLY make a character destructive. A vampire lord is NASTY, but without his 200 points of upgrades, his potential goes down a ton.

[Ovich]

ahem... screw you luis....

Well... we can do all sorts of things..

we can make 500 pts of characters with no lord choices.... or only 1 lord choice worth no more than 300 pts... or a no magic tournament with no wizards allowed.

What do you guys want to do?

I'm definitely tired of all these destroyer of eternity, 3 liche priest, double catapult, double scorpion lists flying around..

P.s It would also be refreshing to see Matt win without his Chosen with Rapturous Standard... Tell ya what Matt, you do that, and I'll take a wood elf list WITHOUT the Hail of doom arrow ... ok?

[scurrdi]

Stephan, I don't think you could actually make that list. It's too ingrained in the program.

However, I think there is a variety of types of tournaments available. If I get the chance I will post an article I found in an old WD about "Low Fantasy" games. They have a list of options you can do to make it "low fantasy" basically, tone down the cheese abilities.

Some of them include things like: No Lord choices, No rare choices, no mages, no monsterous creatures, etc.

I'll see if I can get them up and online.

[Ovich]

good idea Dan, I remember that article... Let's do a Low Fantasy Tourney.

[Dr. Love]

That sounds like a Genius idea!

[ShadowMaster]

Please let me be clear - I'm not complaining about anybodys list, nor do I think Stephen is a dick. What I'm saying is I'm not surprised Stephen did well with that setup.

My list did have 8 power dice, but that is low for a Tzeentch list. It was also a bit of a weakness that I may correct next month. One thing is for sure - the Chaos Giants will be there. They are way too much fun to leave them home!

[scurrdi]

Agreed! Everyone either loves or hates a good giant!