Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

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Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by WC_Brian on Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:42 am

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/398088.page

If wilson wants to argue it he should get on there and do so.

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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by KingdomCome on Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:05 am

???? This seems fairly obvious....
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by ShadowMaster on Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:52 am

Something bad go down at 'Ard Boyz?

The bigger problem is everyone who chimed in is just another player with another unofficial opinion. If only GW had an offcial website where you could ask a rule question and get an offcial binding answer......

http://privateerpressforums.com/forumdisplay.php?39-WARMACHINE-amp-HORDES-Mk-II-Rules-Questions



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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by ShadowMaster on Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:10 am

The last answer on the Dakka post is not even correct - you would NOT stop at the enemy unit.

page 68 is very clear that you can end tank shock on top of an enemy model (falling back or not) and they are then moved out by the shortest distance possible to be 1" away.
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by KingdomCome on Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:36 pm

The correct answer is you move the units around until they all fit. If they end up behind the tank shocking tank, so be it. The fall back death move is only if they break in assaults. It is fairly obvious, to those who know the rules.
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by KingdomCome on Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:42 pm

ShadowMaster wrote:Something bad go down at 'Ard Boyz?

The bigger problem is everyone who chimed in is just another player with another unofficial opinion. If only GW had an offcial website where you could ask a rule question and get an offcial binding answer......

http://privateerpressforums.com/forumdisplay.php?39-WARMACHINE-amp-HORDES-Mk-II-Rules-Questions



Eh.... It wouldn't fly with gw because it makes too much sense. This one really doesn't need any clarification. Just people not knowing the rules... Sad but this type of stuff happens way too often. It's one thing forgetting a rule ,its another making up rules as you go.
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by KingdomCome on Sun Sep 18, 2011 12:46 pm

ShadowMaster wrote:Most of the answers on the Dakka post is not even correct
There you go Bill. Fixed it for you. It's the reason I don't go to dakka. Good luck trying to tell some of those rules lawyers otherwise.
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by ShadowMaster on Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:10 pm

I'm banned from the UK Warhammer boards because I get into rules debates with idiots. Way too stressful.

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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by Dice_Runt on Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:23 pm

ShadowMaster wrote:I'm banned from the UK Warhammer boards because I get into rules debates with idiots. Way too stressful.


what?????? please do tell
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by The Eldar Guy on Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:14 pm

I had never heard that scenario suggested until that day. This is different, but this is the scenario I was putting forward:

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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by The Eldar Guy on Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:23 pm

Also, to note, the wave serpents are undersized while the infantry are oversized. Makes the image look like less models can be surrounded than can be in reality. The wave serpent is two inches shorter and one inch thinner than the real model. Wave serpents are 7.5" x 4.75". In that image they are 5.5" x 3.75". I measured.
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by WC_Brian on Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:28 am

I haven't looked at that thread, I'll check it out in a bit. Yeah dakka makes my head hurt too but at least they have a forum just for rules where some people try. I just filter out the people who are just arguing for it's own sake.

So I could see the 5 Wave Serpent but it looks difficult to pull off. Don't you need to declare a distance with the Wave Serpent? I guess you just say farther than you need to but wait a second how can you get up to the squad when you are on top of your own Wave Serpent?

BTW this is declared illegal in the Adepticon FAQ. I imagine they do so because it is clearly outside the spirit of the game.

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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by KingdomCome on Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:18 am

Well you don't even have to go as far as an independent faq. You can use the rulebook to figure this one out. Just put the last tid bit of the tank shock rules and the stay an inch away from enemy models rule. The answer blows for the opponent, but if we follow Chris' diagram those marines end up on the other side of one of the wave serpents. Which one becomes the real question. If falling back, it would obviously be the rear serpent, if not get ready for another round of hypotheticals and "show me's" for a situation that is 1 in a million.
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by KingdomCome on Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:20 am

Oh BTW this is just for a bunch of free loot , right? Can you imagine if money was involved? Holy shit balls! That's another thread of win, for another day of fail.
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by The Eldar Guy on Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:07 am

Yes, you need to declare distance moved. Which means given the size of vehicles and 2" "coherency" of the blocking vehicles, you'd have to guess within 1-2" inches of a direct center placement. Certainly not impossible; easy for those of us that played fantasy.

If some enemy models in the enemy unit would end up
underneath the vehicle when it reaches its final position
(it makes no difference whether the unit is falling back
or not), these models must be moved out of the way
by the shortest distance, leaving at least 1" between
them and the vehicle and maintaining unit coherency.

In this tank shock the infantry unit is surrounded by enemy units (ie. impassible terrain), which they must be 1" away from. Another skimmer, tank shocking, lands on top of them forcing them to move out from under it.

Just clarifying for anyone reading this.

Personal interpretation: The rules completely allow the moment of the four stationary waveserpents and the tank shocking serpent. The rules also prevent the tank shocked unit from moving through units not involved in the actual tank shock. The rules do not spell out exactly what happens WHEN the tank shock concludes, but it allows it to come to completion. The question we're all asking is: What happens to the tank shocked unit? Where do they move as they're surrounded by impassible terrain? They cannot move, they cannot occupy the same space as another model, they cannot be within one inch of an enemy model.


Not strictly rules arguing information:
I've personally done this myself, I believe, twice in 3 years. The most recent one in a tournament involving 6-7 wave serpents coming from reserves on a nob unit that was in my deployment zone (sorry juan Neutral ). Even in that tournament situation I felt uncomfortable and was ready and willing to let my opponent take back his move.

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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by ShadowMaster on Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:29 am

Trapped only applies when falling back. No rule is present for when the unit holds but it is also under the tank with nowhere to go.

Another impossible loop hole from GW.

Until they rule in an official FAQ it becomes a tourney judges call.

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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by The Eldar Guy on Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:13 am

I also can't seem to find anything about a unit disembarking from a wreck when the hull is blocked by impassible terrain/enemy models.
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by KingdomCome on Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:30 pm

The determining factor between your point and mine Chris is what do you consider a tank? Is it an enemy unit , or impassable terrain? It's probably both but it changes depending on what you're doing with your tank. On that note, if you consider it to be an enemy unit with all the jive that comes with, I'd go with the first rule used in the situation ( movement due to tank shock) and to follow it up with what other applicable rules need to be used afterwards ( 1 inch from enemy units).
This is just as valid as any other argument for why the unit SHOULD be destroyed, except it has sportmanship at its core. If I wanted to take it further I'd argue, if the move is going to cause several rules to be broken ( can't stay within 1 inch of enemy units) , should the move be allowed at all?
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by The Eldar Guy on Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:54 pm

I don't think I understand where you're saying the enemy should move in this situation.

MODELS IN THE WAY
A model may not move into or through the space
occupied by another model (which is represented by its
base or by its hull) or through a gap between friendly
models that is smaller than its own base (or hull) size.
A model cannot move so that it touches an enemy
model during the Movement and Shooting phases
this is only possible in an assault during the Assault
phase. To keep this distinction clear, a model may not
move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting.

Remember that
other models, friends and enemies, also count as
impassable terrain.

Are you suggesting the infantry move through one of the stationary tanks?
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by KingdomCome on Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:47 pm

That's exactly what I'm saying. The rule you've quoted above applies to voluntary movement on your behalf. It specifically states a model can't move within an inch of a model. So what happens when a model is moved involuntarily , but its forced to break several of the rules listed using your scenario. I.E. a unit has nowhere to go? Tank shocking allows several of those rules (and some not mentioned) to be ignored while taking that action. If we use the requirements for the models moved at the end of a tank shock ( must be moved so its 1 inch from the tank AND maintain coherence ) and we use the requirements for maintaining distance from other enemy units, wouldn't we end up on the other side of one of the walled serpents? The rules you stated ( from the book obviously) are for when you move your models; they don't mention what to do when movement is cause by your opponent. So during your movement, friendly and enemy units become impassable terrain for the purposes of you moving your models. It's a little less clear when this situation pops up. Which leads me to my original conclusion, we're both supported by RAW depending on how you look at it. Which leads to the follow up; if a scenario comes up where there is way too much gray and forces rules to be broken, or made up on the spot, should the move even be allowed?
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by KingdomCome on Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:59 pm

Oh and this isn't a new rules debate either. This has been discussed in length in other blogs and forums. Both sides of the coin have good valid points, I just tend to lean to the effect that's less destructive. The more I think about it , the more I'm convinced its easier and more productive to not let this situation be allowed. How hard is it to actually kill 5 marines with out having to pull extreme measures? Is it that important that you'd spend hours arguing about it? And out of all the games of 40k how many times is this going to come up? I've played my fair share and have never come across this specific scenario... Ever....
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by ShadowMaster on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:05 pm

I do agree that the situation is a bit goofy. I'm no 40k expert, but for the ammount of resources involved; wouldn't you be better served just shooting those 5 wave serpents into the unit?
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by WC_Brian on Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:53 pm

http://40kwreckingcrew.aceboard.com/331128-601-8390-1-Tank-shocked-death.htm#vb

That answers some points in this thread.

I also can't seem to find anything about a unit disembarking from a wreck when the hull is blocked by impassible terrain/enemy models.

Yeah by RAW they emergency disembark anywhere and are pinned for the rest of the turn. That means they jump back up on your turn after having jumped out any distance. Based on the wording in the rulebook you could then never close hatch a rhino to kill the guys inside. This is not the way I play it and also something that the Adepticon FAQ says is a no go.

That FAQ is something which i hold in high esteem and find immensely valuable. A council of 8 people debate all rules issues in 40k because things have to run smoothly at their mega convention. I know many of them to be elite tournament players and others to put tons of work into Adepticon and the FAQ. Even if you don't agree with something in it at least you know how it will work when you go there. I would highly suggest adopting it because it doesn't allow alot of the dbag moves that the rulebook does.

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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by The Eldar Guy on Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Oh, for emergency disembark:
Rulebook FAQ
Q: If a transport vehicle is completely surrounded can a
unit inside disembark by moving through the enemy
models? (p67)
A: No. Models that disembark are still subject to the
normal movement rules regarding moving through
other models as per page 11.

Not making an account, but a couple points:

Well it does happen because a guy in miami has won 4 tournaments doing it and no one will play that army of his outside of a tournament.

uh... lol. Not only is this a lie, or even slanderous, but it has nothing to do with the argument. Rolling Eyes Both the original post and the follow ups are hardly indicative of trying to find the "truth."

And to the people asking about what happens to the eldar tank when it lands on the friendly model, or tank shocks a unit in terrain:

Rulebook FAQ
Q: If a skimmer tank shocks or rams an enemy unit that
is in terrain must it take a Dangerous Terrain test? (p71)
A: Only if it begins or ends its move in terrain.
Q: If a skimmer is forced to stop moving by a Death or
Glory! attack whilst over a friendly or enemy model
what happens? (p71)
A: Move the skimmer the shortest possible distance so
that it is no longer over any models.
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Re: Stop tank shocking people to death, it's not legal

Post by zephel on Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:13 pm

Wilson beat me in the last round on Saturday by tank shocking my draigo and 3 paladins and surrounding them with four vehicles. I was told that they become destroyed since they can't move because of that 1 inch thing
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