All armor tank companies.

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All armor tank companies.

Post by rokassan on Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:41 pm

So its been brought to my attention all armor tank companies seem to be dominating the tournament scene. Is this a fact? Has power gaming finally began to poison FoW...are the rules flawed? I spoke to Rufus and he told me an all tank list demolished all of its opponents in the last tournament. This topic arose when I ask if he planed to get some infantry for his LW Soviet tank company. He said no way. Anything(Infantry,recon,AT guns, artillery) but tanks are a waste. A shit load of tanks will destroy anything, even in terrain heavy board. Ive never faced an all tank list. On an open plain, yes I could see armor rolling over anything but other tanks. But in a terrain heavy board I would think AT guns and well equipped infantry would have an excellent chance to stop an all tank list. Lets have some comments here.

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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by KingdomCome on Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:12 am

Rufus just likes the easy button. I played 3 games against his soviet list and did very well. I used my 3rd armor tank list and almost beat him with no reserves coming in until turn 4. Let's do the math, I held off 19 tanks with 8 shermans and 6 priests. Not to mention a medal of honor winning Sherman observer tank. Good game overall. Couple rolls here or there and it could've gone either way. Second game I fudge on deployment and he won turn 2 against my FSSF infantry company. Third game I almost won, but my fearless infantry couldn't pass motivation to Wreck face on a stupid tank. Overall all tank lists are nice, but a balanced list wins every time assuming all things are equal... dice were the deciding factor for most of our games.
As far as power gaming in FOW, my question is how? This is one of the few games where I feel there really isn't cheese. Hell I welcome king tigers now that I know how to handle those suckers. There are some rock paper scissors occasions, but they are few and far between.
As far as tanks dominating the tourney scene, I wouldn't know. Ask Dan. He goes to large tourneys. I feel much more comfortable facing a tank horde after my games with rufus so I'm not super worried about it.
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by Kyle on Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:10 pm

Is it just a local thing? Because from what I have read it sounds like Infantry have been dominating the tourny scene on the international/national level. Keep hearing how overpowered British infantry lists are and have been placing heavily and high in the tournaments. Another trend that has been obvious is that.... well Americans suck. They seem to always do badly..doesn't mean they can't win, but at tournies they usually fair badly so they are not very competitive. The power levels of armies though really are based on balance issues with army lists and specific army rules, not with the games rules itself. Soviets have become very powerful in large part because they have gotten a shit ton of content dedicated mostly towards them with late war. Soviet tank companies I would imagine being popular due to them having such great variety and power for cost, while I bet a large factor against infantry soviet lists is.... well lot of people are probably turned off by the idea of painting a gazillion soviet infantry figs.

As for power gaming, despite what people like to think, it exists in pretty much every game, just some games are more obvious than others. Flames of War has the benefit of crazy large amount of army lists and build variations a person is capable of, in games with higher build restriction to army lists and less variety, the power levels will always become more apparent.

In some games certain builds/armies have an advantage over other armies, but they aren't unbeatable, while in some other games certain armies come off as just broken and unstoppable. A major factor also is how the matches are done in particular games. In 40k for example tournies often use the same standard missions which make it easy to build uber lists around, while other games have more objective and variable scenarios that mix things up, and help alleviates the planned cheese list as a person has to plan for everything.

If you hadn't read it, this was one of the more recent 2010 nationals results break down that does a good job breaking things down: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/07/flames-of-war-nationals-2010-where.html

Yea not one US list in the top 20 even.
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by Hurricane on Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:01 pm

No way, have him try that list against my FJ with their panzerfausts and it will hold it's own. My infantry will hold up just fine vs all those tanks. Ask Luis, dug in elite infantry are a pain in the butt.
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by scurrdi on Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:55 pm

At our Regional FOW tournament a Russian All Tank army took 1st place.

However, his match ups were the best ones he could ask for.

Round 1: Faced a German Recon Company (vs. Russian tanks? yeah...)

Round 2: Faced a German Panzer Company (ended up 4-3 here)

Round 3: Faced Luis's Penal Battalion Company (lots of Tank MG versus infantry with little support...)


Really in FOW it comes down to matchups. I still firmly believe that any all tank list matched up against ANY paratrooper list from any nationality (American, British, or German) will get slaughtered. This is from experience not anything else.

No, I think the tournament scene is actually pretty mixed as far as what armies are winning and losing. It's really about who you are matched up against, because some armies are clearly designed to better face certain types of companies (like paratroopers having the close range AT due to lack of tank support, but lacking in numbers to repel a massive infantry horde).

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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by luis the young on Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:25 am

Like Dan said, it depends on the matchup and the mission. A full tank Company vs any elite infantry army would get owned. Is VERY hard to hit those bastards when they are dugged in, evrything is going against you:
1s-gotta hit, 2nd-he's gotta fail his 3+ save and 3rd-you gotta make a 6+ FP test, Very hard.
So whats the option ? get close with the tanks, and when you get close they have all those nice rape*tank weapons at their disposal.

Couple of times i have used my IS-3 company with NO infantry support, like 9 IS-3s..scary right ? Erick raped them cause if i miss a couple of armor saves here and there.. It Hurts, and when i got close he destroyed them in assault.

I used the same company with less tanks, some infantry and artillery support, and they did MUCH better against another opponent that had a Panzer/grenadier company.

Full tank company is a gamble, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.

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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by rokassan on Mon Oct 11, 2010 8:30 am

This is good to hear. I didnt believe Tank Companies owned, but I figured I may be missing something.

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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by Motormanmpd on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:07 pm

I like playing all tanks not because I think they are all powerful but because they are fun. You will not win every game but will have a competitive list. I have played tank on tank battles recently and the games were fun fast and furious. I like these type of games as a nice change from the infantry slug feast.

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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by rokassan on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:38 pm

I finished up three 20mm flak halftracks,a King Tiger, an Elephant and a PanzerIVH today.

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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by jhope on Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:31 am

I checked out the Nats article and the article showing the winners, etc. I didn't see any location where they show the actual lists that were played. Anyone know where to find them or is this a supposed to be secret.

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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by KingdomCome on Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:49 am

I don't think its a secret. It isn't hard to make a list, its probably harder to remember all the rules. It probably comes down to pairings and terrain in most tournaments.
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by scurrdi on Tue Oct 12, 2010 1:42 pm

It says what nationality they play, not what army list they play. Usually you can find out what folks are fielding by checking the FOW forums.

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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by kosmos on Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:17 pm

Yes Americans suck. Yes it all comes down to match ups and terrain. But I'd rather move tons of tanks and roll for planes and lose than dig in my infantry and wait... and wait... and probably still lose. I just got bored of infantry. GO T-34s!
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by Kyle on Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:44 pm

I think lot of people like the simplicity of tank lists. They can be fairly versatile and it's just easier to play than infantry, as well as easier to build and paint vehicles. Tank companies seem to be what most people who get into the game like to gravitate to at first because of how much simpler it all is to put together a quick army... and it won't totally suck.
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by KingdomCome on Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:22 pm

Infantry companies don't suck. They just have to be supported properly. Combined arms is the name of the game. Alexs' paratroopers weren't bad, I just feel they were supported poorly. I enjoy playing infantry companies. Mainly because I like arty and time on target...
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by kosmos on Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:07 pm

I've won my share of games with my 82nd... and it was my first list. I chose it with out knowing anything about the game. After almost a year of infantry, I want to try a tank company.

I think most people that get into any new game really have no idea what they are doing. After they make tons of mistakes they can actually find what they like to play.

I also think the biggest factor in picking a a type of army/list is just how much money you have to spend on your models.
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by luis the young on Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:42 am

KingdomCome wrote:Infantry companies don't suck. They just have to be supported properly. Combined arms is the name of the game. Alexs' paratroopers weren't bad, I just feel they were supported poorly. I enjoy playing infantry companies. Mainly because I like arty and time on target...

I love laying down 91 stands of infantry and watch my opponent say "how the fuck am i gonna kill all that?!?"

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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by rokassan on Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:14 pm

Fielding all tanks is a boring. What wrong with having a mix? It has to get boring playing the same shit over and over with no options. Put you troops in trucks or halftracks if their too slow for you. I know Stephen plays an all tank Soviet tank company. He bored of it. No variation.

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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by Kyle on Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:42 pm

Seeing armies people deploy for other games just to win or easy mode, I don't think many people understand the concept of playing wargames for "fun"
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by rokassan on Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:10 pm

Kyle wrote:Seeing armies people deploy for other games just to win or easy mode, I don't think many people understand the concept of playing wargames for "fun"

Well thats a shame. Thats why I play this crap...to have fun and bullshit with my friends. Why else play. Life is stressful enough, why turn a hobby into a win at all cost stress fest. If you have a small dick and need to compensate go snorkeling with sharks or sky dive.I know I said it before, but amazes me how in less than 6 years the hobby (at Joels store)has gone from an enjoyable social event to win at all cost shit storm. Almost all of the old players are gone.

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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by KingdomCome on Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:21 pm

How is it a win at all cost fest for flames of war? I don't understand the feelings that you can't enjoy playing at sunshine. I play by the rules given, using sound tactics, and I still have a smile on my face. If others don't enjoy playing me, it isn't because I'm a waac asshole, that's for sure. On the other side of the coin, I'm not going to lay down and let you walk all over me for your "fun".
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by Hurricane on Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:45 pm

I enjoyed our game yesterday... very laid back and fun... except the losing part! affraid
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by KingdomCome on Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:54 pm

I had a good time. I'm usually the guy that can't roll to save his life. I'm happy with the new list for now. It seems to have a nice balance to it. I just wish I had smoke and recon, but beggars can't be choosers.
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by Hurricane on Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:01 pm

It is a nice list. I love my stug company. However, as you see it struggles vs heavy tanks. But it chews up infantry. Give and take like you said. Its what I like about the game. I have yet to see anyone list dominate in every mission or situation.
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Re: All armor tank companies.

Post by KingdomCome on Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:08 pm

I imagine your tanks with tank riders do a number on infantry on the assault. I just broke out that army because I had just put the tanks together. I'll play you with my FSSF next time. It's fearless trained infantry with good support. I've played them a few times and they are decent. Not overwhelming, just don't let them assault.
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